All 650's (Engine?) rattle

[Thomas]

I got some kind of rattle with the bike. It almost always had it a bit but it got a bit worse over time.
Especially with low speeds and lower rpm (2nd/3rd gear in town).
It´s hard to describe but maybe someone already had that, too.
It´s not there in idle. If I rev it in neutral it´s not there. When it rattles and I pull the clutch lever it stops. If I realease it slowly it comes back. It is not the chain.

I know, remote diagnosis is always difficult but what could it be?
Timing chain? (Wouldn´t it rattle then in neutral?)
Injection valves - first big service is soon -? (Wouldn´t it rattle then in neutral?)
Gearbox?

It shifts and behaves normal.

Thanks in advance, Thomas

 

[h0ck3y]

I would say either the gears need adjusting or something is loose and rattling when the bike is under load. I can't say much about the gears -- I'm not an expert and will leave that to the mechanics on the forum or in your shop. Check all the bolts in the meantime (fairings, panels, etc.) and see is anything is loose or even missing...

 

[miweber929]

Remote diagnosis of a noise is hard without hearing it for ourselves but if everything behaves as it should I wouldn't worry as much about it.

Couple things:

1. The PAIR valve makes a bunch of noise at low rpm, low load situations.
2. There is a known rattle in the middle of the dash that some people experience and others don't.
3. Levers, especially lower end aftermarket units, can rattle.
4. The fairing or windscreen can rattle.

Questions:

What mods have you done? Even if it doesn't seem to be related, let us know as that may help.
Is it a metallic sound or more plastic?
Can you identify where about the noise is coming from?
Why are you so sure it's not the chain? Just curious, they can be weirdly noisy at times.
Can you repeat it? If so can you start touching things to see if it stops? Might help identify the area that's rattling.
Has it always been there? What makes it worse/better?

Let's see what those answers are, might help pinpoint it.

 

[Duncan]

Noises I get from the bike.

1200rpm, in moist conditions and I get a misfire of sorts, the PAIR system rattles stupidly.
3000rpm: buzz in instrument cover plastics.
5000rpm: hard clunking through the bars. sort of like a hammering. but I also asked the salesman about the harshness of the bike on a flat throttle on the bike when I test rode it, 105,000km ago. It felt like a cylinder was running lean or in need of a carb balance.
6000rpm+: high rev vibrations typical of an inline 4 with no balance shaft for secondary reciprocation forces. can come through bars, pegs and other but I also look to not crash into stuff when in that part of the rev range so, it's mostly out of mind.

Hard to pin down stuff.
Clutch noise. it makes a bit of extra noise most of the time which is mostly noticeable when you take the slack out of the actuator cable* and such or pull it in all together.
* I do lots of work in traffic so cover the clutch a great deal. thus I get to notice these noises.

The Chain
An older chain can start catching the edge of teeth on the rear sprocket and as such increase incidental noises as it catches. this is most often noticeable during acceleration and is a good sign to review the end of life replacement of the chain.

 

[Thomas]

Thanks for your answers so far, I´ll try to go ahead and specify it a bit.

What mods have you done?

Exhaust, seat cover, foot pegs, tinted windshield, levers, barends, plate holder, indicators front and rear, crash pads.

Can you identify where about the noise is coming from?

From the front, the lower part of the bike.

Why are you so sure it's not the chain? Just curious, they can be weirdly noisy at times.

The Chain
An older chain can start catching the edge of teeth on the rear sprocket and as such increase incidental noises as it catches. this is most often noticeable during acceleration and is a good sign to review the end of life replacement of the chain.

I have a pretty new chain. The old one made some noise, I remember pretty well how that sounded. When I pull the clutch and lean my head to the side and focus on the chain I hear the sound it makes. That´s not it I´m 99% certain.

Has it always been there? What makes it worse/better?

Yes, always noticed it slightly. At the 12k km service I mentioned it. Everything was ok according to the dealer.
It got a bit louder over time. I can hear it clearer/more often when the bike/engine is cold(er).

2. There is a known rattle in the middle of the dash that some people experience and others don't.

3000rpm: buzz in instrument cover plastics.

I know that plastic rattle from the dash. It´s different.

Is it a metallic sound or more plastic?

Kind of a mixture

Also I only get it in the lower rpms (5000 and below). Especially when slowly rolling around or taking a slow turn in second gear. As soon as I accelerate a bit there is that awful noise.

I found a video of a similar sound.

At around 3 minutes and 5 second and after that your hear a ticking/rattling or whatever I should call it.

And here right at the start the first seconds. That´s also very similar.

 

[Duncan]

dropping a cylinder? moisture can cause it to miss on the spark, a failed spark plug, injector issues including fuel pressure.
The 1st video shows an exhaust header retaining flange that has come loose. you will find a thread here that talks about the importance of replacing the crush seal at the header when ever you take the pipe off. the sound could be blow through at the header. it's easy to confirm as there will be some soot at the failed seal. otherwise it may need the valve clearances checked. or the Pair system.

 

[miweber929]

Great advice from @Duncan, all good areas to look at.

If the noises are similar to the videos, both are leaking at the exhaust manifold area. Did you replace the copper exhaust gaskets when you swapped your pipe? Were the bolts torqued correctly? Are they still torqued right?

I'd start looking at all the connections on the exhaust.

What brand pipe do you have?

 

[Thomas]

Today I managed to capture it a bit while running on idle after start. It´s not really loud but sice I pointed my phone towards the direction of the "source" you can hear it a bit better. That ticking, rattling in the background. I hope you can hear it. Excuse the quality of the video.



At around 17s I moved the phone and you can hear it a bit more. I guess that is that noise getting a bit louder when slightly accelerating from lower speeds and rpm.

 

[Jonathan]

Is it the ticking noise you're worried about?

 

[Thomas]

Is it the ticking noise you're worried about?

I thought it's the injection and that it's normal in idle. But that similar sound during the ride worries me. It got - at least a bit- louder over time.
Also to mention I think I really have a noise paranoia and the constant fear of something going really really wrong.

 

[ADIOS600]

Duncan and miweber are right if that sound in the clip is your noise,you have a leak in the exhaust. Also these old bikes do have a lot of noisy quirks, maybe you are looking too deeply into it.As the miles rack up everything slackens off a bit. You could let the dealer give it a health check ?.

 

[Brammers]

Have the pair valves been blanked? If so plates might not be seated properly.

Basically an exhaust leak in a different place.

J

 

[miweber929]

Today I managed to capture it a bit while running on idle after start. It´s not really loud but sice I pointed my phone towards the direction of the "source" you can hear it a bit better. That ticking, rattling in the background. I hope you can hear it. Excuse the quality of the video.

At around 17s I moved the phone and you can hear it a bit more. I guess that is that noise getting a bit louder when slightly accelerating from lower speeds and rpm.

The sound in the video you posted is an air leak, either in the exhaust as @Duncan and I mentioned earlier or something in the intake or PAIR system as @Brammers mentioned.

You'll have to dig into it from there.

 

[Thomas]

Alright, big thanks for all your replies.
Already checked the exhaust - didn´t really find something.
If it´s something with the PAIR System, how urgent is it. (Another hard to answer question )
Don´t get me wrong, I don´t wanna just leave it but I guess I´ll have the 24k service and de-restriction together, soon.
I get my full licence hopefully on the 30.09.17. Until then the mileage should be around 24k.
So if it´s urgent I´ll visit the dealer. But it´s been there now for a while and the bike feels and behaves just perfect.
Would be an easy thing mentioning it at the big service when everything gets checked and the bike gets ripped apart anyway.

 

[baugustine]

PAIR operation is emission-related, primarily to feed the catalytic converter. No harm if you leave it be for now.

 

[ADIOS600]

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[Brammers]

If your exhaust has no cat then the pair system is just 1.5kgs of useless weight and noise.

J

 

[ADIOS600]

I did not realise it was that heavy. Does it effect the running ?

 

[Brammers]

Removal improved running for me and aaron

J

 

[Thomas]

Short little update for anyone that´s interested:

Got it to the dealer today. First impression: Engine is completely fine. Noise while in Neutral is most likely a bit play with the clutch and the clutch basket which seems to be totally fine. He´ll test ride it tomorrow for the noise on the move but he´s pretty confident it´s nothing serious.

Thanks again for your advices / thoughts. I also told him those.

We´ll see soon.