- May 18, 2017
The video is about bicycles but everything there applies to motorcycles as well. Might be an eye opener for people not aware of counter-steering.
-
Has your topic been discussed? Check this quick video for search tips. You answer/info might already be waiting!
- Sep 5, 2024
- Riding Since
- 1993
I'm always amazed every time I find someone who rides bikes and doesn't know about counter-steering... and there's so many out there... 🙄
It makes a huge difference in your driving when you learn how to use it.
It makes a huge difference in your driving when you learn how to use it.
On a reasonably quick-steering bike I think most riders do it subconsciously. On a heavy, slow-steering bike like the BMW K100RS I had many moons ago, a real shove on one bar, depending on desired direction, forced it to drop quickly and get round tight corners at speed.
The IAM now refer to it as positive steering, rather than counter steering as it is felt it more accurate.
FWIW I had never heard of positive steering until some time in my third decade of riding (I'm in my sixth decade now). It didn't really become a thing until the eighties.
After that it became getting your knee down....
The IAM now refer to it as positive steering, rather than counter steering as it is felt it more accurate.
FWIW I had never heard of positive steering until some time in my third decade of riding (I'm in my sixth decade now). It didn't really become a thing until the eighties.
After that it became getting your knee down....
When I studied to be an MSF riding instructor back in the early 2000s they told us that if you are riding a motorcycle and turning a corner above something like 10mph you are counter steering whether you know it or not because that’s the only way it will turn.
So it’s great there is all this discussion and theory on it but the simple truth is you’re doing it whether you know you are or don’t know.
So it’s great there is all this discussion and theory on it but the simple truth is you’re doing it whether you know you are or don’t know.
So, you ride into a bend faster than you should. Riding properly you shouldn't but it happens. The bend tightens up. Giving the appropriate bar a positive shove will get the bike over quickly and give you a good chance of getting round. Although we do it naturally to a large extent there are occasions when being aware of it can help.
- Sep 5, 2024
- Riding Since
- 1993
Yes, I think the point here is that some people are not aware of it while others use it consciously.
I've ridden behind riders using other ways to put the bike in a corner. Breaking, moving the body, maybe with pressure on the handlebars.
I was looking from behind and they looked like fighting with the bike, while I was doing just some counter steering in a relaxed way to follow them.
It makes all the difference if you use it consciously or not.
I've ridden behind riders using other ways to put the bike in a corner. Breaking, moving the body, maybe with pressure on the handlebars.
I was looking from behind and they looked like fighting with the bike, while I was doing just some counter steering in a relaxed way to follow them.
It makes all the difference if you use it consciously or not.
- Feb 7, 2024
- Riding Since
- 2006
Counter steering is so poorly explained, that's why lots of people don't understand it. It's quite simple really.
Simple Explanation:
If you are going in a straight line on a motorcycle (or bicycle) and you want to turn left you must first lean the bike into the corner. If you simply turn the wheel to the left the bike will lean right until you eventually hit the ground. So to turn left you must first turn right to set up the lean and THEN you can turn left and balance the bike at lean.
Detailed Explanation:
When you turn the wheel slightly to the right, the wheel is no longer rolling in the direction of travel of your centre of mass so there is a force generated at the contact patch of the bike which pushes your front wheel to the right. As the front starts to move, then the back wheel starts to turn as the chassis is now pointing slightly askew from the direction of travel. These forces at the wheel create a rotation about the COM (centre of mass) because the combined centre of mass of you and the bike is about 0.6-0.7m above ground level (just a guess, it changes based on bike and rider). So that horizontal force (Fh) at the contact patch multiplied by the lever arm (Y, measured vertically from ground to COM) creates a rotational moment Fh*Y=M1. That moment causes the bike to rotate and the longer you keep your front wheel pointed to the right, the more the bike will rotate/lean to the left. Once you have achieved a lean that is appropriate for the corner coming up and the speed that you are going (this requires experience to judge) then you can start to turn your wheel to the left. This is when the turning starts. You are balancing the bike at lean, the same as you would when going in a straight line. If you turn harder into the corner the bike turns faster but it also starts to stand up because you are no longer balancing the bike i.e. the Righting Moment (RM) is now greater than the Overturning Moment (OM). Similarly if you turn the wheel less, then the bike will fall more into the corner because the OM is greater than the RM. So if you are mid-corner and see that the corner is tightening, you would slightly decrease your turn on the wheel to allow the bike to "fall" into the corner, increasing lean angle until you are satisfied that the correct lean is achieved and then you would turn the wheel more into the corner just enough to reach a balancing point. When the corner starts to straighten, you turn harder into the corner making the RM>OM and the bike starts to stand up. This is all that counter steering is. Forget all of the complicated explanations about "push right to go right" and "push left to go left" it is confusing and terrible advice. As Einstein supposedly once said "If you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it well enough." Counter steering is simply balancing the bike and setting up the correct lean before turning into a corner.
Key concepts:
Overturning Moment: This is the rotational force created between the contact patch and the bike’s center of mass (COM), with gravity pulling the COM toward the ground. As the bike leans further, the horizontal distance between the COM and the contact patch increases, which amplifies the overturning moment. When the bike is fully upright, the COM is directly above the contact patch, so the overturning moment is zero. However, as the bike leans, the COM shifts further away, increasing the force required to keep the bike from falling. You can feel this effect when holding a stationary bike—keeping it upright is easy, but as you lean it to one side, it becomes progressively harder to hold up.
Righting Moment: This is the rotational force created between the contact patch and the bike’s center of mass (COM), driven by centripetal force. To visualize this, imagine standing on the outer edge of a Ferris wheel. When it's stationary, you can stand upright, but as it spins faster, you must lean further inward to maintain balance. If you don't, you'll be pulled outward and risk falling off.
In the case of a motorcycle, the righting moment is calculated by multiplying the vertical height of the COM (from the ground up) by the centripetal force. This moment works to stand the bike up or, if it becomes too great, can cause the bike to "flop" outward past vertical, making it unstable.
Summary:
I am an engineer, so I think about things as forces, lever arms and force couples. It is really quite simple when you understand it. I know a guy who has only crashed a motorcycle once in his life and it was because his instructor told him to "push right to go right" and "push left to go left". It's such a confusing way of explaining it and causes you to think more about your hands than about balancing the bike. All you are doing is balancing. Whether you are going straight or mid-corner, you are simply adjusting your balance by making micro adjustments to the steering. When you want to turn left, lean the bike to the left first and then turn and vice versa for a right turn. We all instinctively know how to balance a bike and how to adjust lean angle so forget these confusing explanations and just focus on balancing the bike by using your steering inputs. Feel free to ask questions. I can draw some free body diagrams for you if you need me to.
Edit: In my description I said "the longer you keep your front wheel pointed to the right, the more the bike will rotate/lean to the left". While this is true, I have simplified it slightly for ease of explanation. In reality, you might only turn the wheel to the right for a second and this causes the bike to lean to the left. Once the bike is leaning you could have the wheel pointed straight and it will still continue to "fall" to the left since it's no longer balanced. So don't go pointing your wheel to the right and holding it there. Once the lean is initiated then go by feel and adjust steering as required to let the bike "fall" to the lean angle that you need and then you can turn in to the corner to "catch" the bike and start balancing at that lean angle. The faster you go and the more abrupt the corner, the more force (sharper steering inputs) you will need.
Simple Explanation:
If you are going in a straight line on a motorcycle (or bicycle) and you want to turn left you must first lean the bike into the corner. If you simply turn the wheel to the left the bike will lean right until you eventually hit the ground. So to turn left you must first turn right to set up the lean and THEN you can turn left and balance the bike at lean.
Detailed Explanation:
When you turn the wheel slightly to the right, the wheel is no longer rolling in the direction of travel of your centre of mass so there is a force generated at the contact patch of the bike which pushes your front wheel to the right. As the front starts to move, then the back wheel starts to turn as the chassis is now pointing slightly askew from the direction of travel. These forces at the wheel create a rotation about the COM (centre of mass) because the combined centre of mass of you and the bike is about 0.6-0.7m above ground level (just a guess, it changes based on bike and rider). So that horizontal force (Fh) at the contact patch multiplied by the lever arm (Y, measured vertically from ground to COM) creates a rotational moment Fh*Y=M1. That moment causes the bike to rotate and the longer you keep your front wheel pointed to the right, the more the bike will rotate/lean to the left. Once you have achieved a lean that is appropriate for the corner coming up and the speed that you are going (this requires experience to judge) then you can start to turn your wheel to the left. This is when the turning starts. You are balancing the bike at lean, the same as you would when going in a straight line. If you turn harder into the corner the bike turns faster but it also starts to stand up because you are no longer balancing the bike i.e. the Righting Moment (RM) is now greater than the Overturning Moment (OM). Similarly if you turn the wheel less, then the bike will fall more into the corner because the OM is greater than the RM. So if you are mid-corner and see that the corner is tightening, you would slightly decrease your turn on the wheel to allow the bike to "fall" into the corner, increasing lean angle until you are satisfied that the correct lean is achieved and then you would turn the wheel more into the corner just enough to reach a balancing point. When the corner starts to straighten, you turn harder into the corner making the RM>OM and the bike starts to stand up. This is all that counter steering is. Forget all of the complicated explanations about "push right to go right" and "push left to go left" it is confusing and terrible advice. As Einstein supposedly once said "If you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it well enough." Counter steering is simply balancing the bike and setting up the correct lean before turning into a corner.
Key concepts:
Overturning Moment: This is the rotational force created between the contact patch and the bike’s center of mass (COM), with gravity pulling the COM toward the ground. As the bike leans further, the horizontal distance between the COM and the contact patch increases, which amplifies the overturning moment. When the bike is fully upright, the COM is directly above the contact patch, so the overturning moment is zero. However, as the bike leans, the COM shifts further away, increasing the force required to keep the bike from falling. You can feel this effect when holding a stationary bike—keeping it upright is easy, but as you lean it to one side, it becomes progressively harder to hold up.
Righting Moment: This is the rotational force created between the contact patch and the bike’s center of mass (COM), driven by centripetal force. To visualize this, imagine standing on the outer edge of a Ferris wheel. When it's stationary, you can stand upright, but as it spins faster, you must lean further inward to maintain balance. If you don't, you'll be pulled outward and risk falling off.
In the case of a motorcycle, the righting moment is calculated by multiplying the vertical height of the COM (from the ground up) by the centripetal force. This moment works to stand the bike up or, if it becomes too great, can cause the bike to "flop" outward past vertical, making it unstable.
Summary:
I am an engineer, so I think about things as forces, lever arms and force couples. It is really quite simple when you understand it. I know a guy who has only crashed a motorcycle once in his life and it was because his instructor told him to "push right to go right" and "push left to go left". It's such a confusing way of explaining it and causes you to think more about your hands than about balancing the bike. All you are doing is balancing. Whether you are going straight or mid-corner, you are simply adjusting your balance by making micro adjustments to the steering. When you want to turn left, lean the bike to the left first and then turn and vice versa for a right turn. We all instinctively know how to balance a bike and how to adjust lean angle so forget these confusing explanations and just focus on balancing the bike by using your steering inputs. Feel free to ask questions. I can draw some free body diagrams for you if you need me to.
Edit: In my description I said "the longer you keep your front wheel pointed to the right, the more the bike will rotate/lean to the left". While this is true, I have simplified it slightly for ease of explanation. In reality, you might only turn the wheel to the right for a second and this causes the bike to lean to the left. Once the bike is leaning you could have the wheel pointed straight and it will still continue to "fall" to the left since it's no longer balanced. So don't go pointing your wheel to the right and holding it there. Once the lean is initiated then go by feel and adjust steering as required to let the bike "fall" to the lean angle that you need and then you can turn in to the corner to "catch" the bike and start balancing at that lean angle. The faster you go and the more abrupt the corner, the more force (sharper steering inputs) you will need.
Last edited:
- Sep 5, 2024
- Riding Since
- 1993
I agree with you, but I think you complicated a bit... 😆
To make it simpler... just go in a straight line with your bike and turn left and right slowly and feeling your bike's balance.
The best and easier way to understand how it works is by practice.
And if you're afraid to crash your bike, just use a bicycle. 😉
Last edited:
- Feb 7, 2024
- Riding Since
- 2006
I explained it in detail yes, but the summary is that counter steering is just balancing a bike. In order to turn, you still need to balance so you need to lean the bike into the corner before turning into the corner. Do not tell people to "push left or right" it is confusing and makes people think about their hands. This is exactly what caused my friend to crash. People already know how to turn the front wheel so just say "turn right" or "turn left". This is clear and easy and prevents people from thinking about their hands when they should be thinking about balancing.
- Sep 5, 2024
- Riding Since
- 1993
Ok, edited the post 😉
I just wanted to focus the importance of feeling the bike's balance, while doing it. Everything else comes naturally when you feel the bike.
- Feb 7, 2024
- Riding Since
- 2006
Agreed, most people learn to ride a bike by feel. We don't teach 5-year-olds about counter steering haha. They just get on the bike and work it out. It's only when people start giving confusing explanations that they start overthinking it and get themselves into trouble. That's exactly what happened to my friend. He had already been riding for a while without trouble but then an instructor explained to him that counter steering is just "push with your left hand to go left" and so he went through a left hand corner, pushed on the left grip and dropped the bike. He is actually a really good rider and way faster than me but he was given bad advice and it screwed him over.
"Look where you want to go" is better advice. If you do mess up a corner, look at where you should be going and you'll automatically lean and steer. If you look at the hedge where you're heading on the wrong side of the road because the bend was tighter than you thought and you entered it too fast, that's where you'll end up. A friend of mine lost a nephew that way. He was riding an R6, his first bike (and probably one of the worst possible choices for a newbie), was going too fast for his skill level and hit a telegraph pole. My friend was going to go with him to choose a good entry level bike but peer pressure by his friends led him to buy the R6.
- Feb 7, 2024
- Riding Since
- 2006
"Look where you want to go" is also good advice. I wouldn't say it is "better advice" since it doesn't explain counter steering, it is just good advice. "Target Fixation" is the phenomenon that you are describing. I'm sorry to hear about your friend's nephew, RIP.
- Feb 7, 2024
- Riding Since
- 2006
What is this dribble? 4:41 seconds of my life that I won't get back.
Yes, I know it's called target fixation. I didn't intend to do an essay on the subject. In my view since steering comes naturally to most people looking where you want to go is better initial advice. I wasn't even aware of counter steering for the first two decades of riding but I knew about where to look. Not crashed by failing to negotiate s sharp bend in over 50 years riding.
- Feb 7, 2024
- Riding Since
- 2006
That's fair but some people are searching for an answer to the question "What is counter steering?" and the answer is not "Look where you want to go". You are mixing up topics.